[Note: This series originally started as a project on Reddit, and we are archiving the posts here on our site. You can find the original Bible Study posts here.]
Welcome back to bible study, everyone! Today we are joined by a lovely guest, u/incisivetea, as we discuss Mingi's page in Diary #2. Let us know what your thoughts are on Mingi's page and where the boys are in this part of the story!
01: what are your thoughts on the page?
BobbyJ: Warning everyone: I have vacation brain
GD: I have stupid adhd medicine brain, so perhaps we're all in for a real treat
BobbyJ: Tea needs to hold us together
Tea: Big task
GD: Also, I have to talk to Jongho again in less than 24 hours, and I feel like I'll throw up. It's weighing very heavy
Tea: Oooh tonight?
GD: 9:00 am--the call is weirdly 11:00 pm their time, so I suppose good luck to me for getting sleep
BobbyJ: You'll do great. Y'all are old friends now
Tea: Wow I'm almost off work by then
GD: I'm going to try something different this time and actually tell him I like him and his work
instead of just showing him my treasures like some sort of demented dragon
BobbyJ: I would take it as a personal kindness if you would tell him how great his IS performance was
GD: Yes. That's on my list of things to tell him. Can't decide if it's too much to say that hearing him sing live is like looking into the face of god. We'll see what happens.
So we have decided on the diary and not a Special Edition? Perhaps wise to not tackle a Special Edition when the two of us who are "in charge" are in a happy little brain cloud.
BobbyJ: Yes, the Halazia special edition was a bit of a mess. We need structure
GD: A beautiful mess
BobbyJ: Indeed. But probably hard to follow. Also, I'm pretty sure we spent more time talking about Utopia
GD: I think we hit all the songs. I remember Turbulence in there as well. But yes, we do need some sort of structure for song discussions
Let me read Mingi and then we can begin with Thoughts on the Page
BobbyJ: I'm spiritually unprepared to talk about the Outlaw diaries
Tea: I am waiting until they're in my hands to read them so I have not yet. *squints at h82*
BobbyJ: All my outlaw diary thoughts are currently just emojis
GD: The only thing I'll say about the Outlaw diaries was I spent most of it going "I WAS RIGHT!"
Which isn't even true. But that's how I felt reading it
Tea: lmao
BobbyJ: You weren't. . . not right. You were right adjacent
Tea: Unwrong
GD: AND SEEING HOW WILD THE THEORY WAS THAT FELT RIGHT
BobbyJ: My prevailing Outlaw thought is it feels like fanfiction
Tea: Excellent. Good vibe
01: What are your thoughts on the page?
GD: Alright, I have read Mingi.
Tea: I have also read Mingi
GD: My first thought upon reading was "here's Mingi talking about Wooyoung again"
BobbyJ: I find Mingi's attitude refreshing
Tea: He's really not on board with any of this nonsense yet. Sort of like a "yeah if you guys wanna I guess"
GD: His backstory really shines through in his section, which I like
BobbyJ: He doesn't really seem eager to get home but also doesn't want to be here
GD: His little "well everyone has a story" bit--like yeah, we all have problems
Tea: He's not wrong!
BobbyJ: And I think in either his or Woo's entry in ZFP1 we talked about how Mingi knows firsthand how nosy Woo can be
Tea: He's nosy because he cares
GD: I want to say it was Mingi's, and by the way, I want to say also that's the other one we had a guest for? Perhaps Mingi's page always requires a guest.
Tea: He's a handful
BobbyJ: I don't think so? We had a special guest for Woo
GD: Ahhh
BobbyJ: But Woo and Mingi are tight so we did talk about Mingi a lot
GD: I find one of Mingi's lines very confusing
"By what we have heard from Hongjoong and the Grimes siblings"
Why does Hongjoong know anything more than the rest of them?
Tea: Hm that's a good point. Maybe Hong is just more into talking to the Grimes and others than Mingi specifically? And Mingi just already thinks of him as an authoritative figure so he's included
GD: Like maybe this is Hongjoong taking up some of the captain responsibilities? Getting the information they need from the Grimes?
BobbyJ: We haven't really seen Hongjoong step forward as a leader yet. We've seen Yunho kind of push him, depending on your interpretation. But it tracks with the rest of the diaries that things are developing off screen
Tea: It does seem like at this point from Mingi's perspective at least he is directing their activities a bit. It's been a while since I read some of the other diaries. Does Hongjoong himself ever talk about acting in a leadership role? I feel like we've always seen that from an outside perspective
GD: I suppose Hongjoong does have the extra conversation with the presumed HalaJoong, so he would be on a slightly better footing to talk to other locals? And we know he felt responsible for getting everyone back home, so maybe we're seeing him try to be more active and ultimately claim that leadership.
BobbyJ: Since he is the one HalaJoong chose to appear to, that sort of marks him as a chosen leader. If you believe in a oneTeez theory, it's because HalaJoong already knows Hongjoong will become leader. I will say though, Outlaw diary kind of puts a dampener on a oneTeez theory
Tea: I think even if it's not one-teez it makes sense. HalaJoong is the leader so he knows his alternate universe counterpart would have it in him
GD: Is it confirmed that halajoong is the leader? Or is that presumed?
Tea: Hm
BobbyJ: He's the one with the Cromer who starts the ball rolling. And I can't imagine a world where KQ will put any other person in charge of any other TEEZ
Tea: Yeah I feel like they make it really clear even if it's not explicit that captain is captain
no matter what version
GD: I'm less confident, but not in a way that I feel like it's important
Tea: In GD's reality Jongho is the leader of the rebellion
BobbyJ: Hold on I think the birds are attempting a jailbreak
Tea: Containment breach!
GD: But I actually think there's some evidence in the choreo for either Hwa or Yunho having a leadership role at some point in time, and so it would make sense to me if that leadership role happened within halateez. Like you're seeing both hala and ateez in those moments, if that makes sense? I'm not saying it's a good or correct theory, just that I think a case could be made
Tea: They're kinda both in the First Mate role. Yunho in his..... Yunhoness and Seonghwa is the one that rescues Yeosang with the Cromer
BobbyJ: False alarm. Birds are secure
I think in the same way that the MVs aren't exactly "canon" the choreo isn't necessarily an indication of reality. That makes more sense in my head I think. But like--if you look at the MV for Bouncy, literally nothing that happens in the MV happens in the diary. But the MV is representative of things that happen in the diary. Same for Fireworks, DV, Inception, etc.
Tea: It does sort of make sense. The MV's stretch things for drama and also sometimes the choreo uses the best person for a role based on actual real life dancing things rather than lore. Like of course Yunho is frequently over them doing controlly things he's TALL
BobbyJ: Same for Mingi. I've seen people--especially that one insane theory twitter person--use the choreo to prove that Mingi is controlling everyone for his own purposes and you read the diaries and it's like ???? what??
Tea: Yeah or like people that use the end of the HALA HALA choreo among other things to prove Wooyo is gonna stab them in the back
BobbyJ: Right right. Some people have gotten very caught up in wondering why it's Mingi that frees Woo from his chains in Wonderland. It's because he's the one with the line at that point in the MV
Tea: I also have to wonder how much of the lore the MV directors are even told? beyond the basics and what they want shown. Everything in there besides the core could just be arbitrary artistic direction
GD: Maybe they too get a lore pdf that they throw directly in the garbage
BobbyJ: That would support my thesis that all Ateez MVs are perfectly enjoyable divorced from the lore. They all have intrinsic meaning
Tea: That's a thesis? It's true
BobbyJ: Well, you know about the people who are like "I can't get into a group with lore"
Tea: My mom thought Halazia was cool and she got the brief rundown but i'm sure her brain did the equivalent of throwing the pdf in the garbage immediately
BobbyJ: And I think that's dumb
Not your mom. Your mom is great
The lore antis are dumb
I'm trying to backtrack to Mingi and I don't know how we got here
GD: Hold on I have one more thought
Tea: Mingi hold on we're working our way back, slowly but surely
GD: The reality of kpop means that there is a new "concept" every time they have a comeback, and so it only makes sense to consider these concepts more as metaphorical representations of the emotional storyline than literal interpretations of what is happening in the story. The concept is cowboys (sort of) and so the MV should match that concept because it is a visual medium. The literal events of the story are written in story form, and the concept for the diaries doesn't change in the same manner.
Now I can go back to Mingi
Tea: The concept is clearly Goat
BobbyJ: Right. Though I'd say the concept is outlaws more than cowboys as they're all breaking laws in some form
Tea: Yeah it's only a little cowboy
BobbyJ: And Goat
Tea: Like Hongjoong!
GD: I said sort of
Anyways, this is the first mention we have of the yellow smoke
Tea: Yes, this is the burnt memory fumes yeah?
BobbyJ: Did they not notice it before or is it concentrated in certain areas?
Tea: He likens it to burning trash which one would expect from a dump
GD: "as if they were continuously burning trash, the yellow smoke..." Do we think they're burning some literal trash or do you think this is meant to say they're treating memories like trash and burning them. they are at a dump
Tea: Memory dump
BobbyJ: The smoke is a byproduct of processing memories and emotions
GD: So I'm curious, I guess, to what is actually trash and what is like trash
Tea: Maybe that's a first impression of seeing smoke over a dump. He doesn't actually know what it is yet. Weird trash smoke that makes you nuts
GD: Right. So my thought here is that Mingi is describing this as a dump and a place where they burn trash. But we know that it's memories and emotions that make the yellow smoke. I have always thought of them as being in a dump, where they just so happened to have memories burning too, but now I guess I'm thinking maybe there isn't any trash here at all. It's just a memory/emotion processing plant.
Tea: But later he says "pile of trash that looks like a cave" so there's at least SOMETHING there that looks like garbage. Maybe memories are just things with feelings attached
BobbyJ: Right. But if GG's lost voice is here, it would make more sense that it's a processing plant rather than just a dump. I've always wondered why they took her voice and put it in a trash cave instead of doing literally anything else with it
Tea: It would make sense to me, rather than ambiguously finding some way to burn literal memory, that they're burning THINGS that have strong emotion attached and.... somehow, they manage to make that connection somewhat supernatural
GD: Like a haunted doll
Tea: Yeah but burning the doll hurts the owner
BobbyJ: The only thing is, I'm fairly certain now that the industrial revolution as they call it actually happened a long time ago. So at this point, why are there still so many objects with emotions attached?
Tea: Ok I have that question about a lot of things and I am chalking it up to "it would be really boring otherwise" and maybe it's because they do a regular sweep and force people to reverse Marie Kondo their spaces and get rid of anything that brings them happiness
BobbyJ: If it's anything like The Giver, there would be consistent checks in place to keep the system running smoothly
Tea: I think that's just to be expected from such a strict....land. Any sort of dictatorship that relies on such intense rules is gonna need to constantly reaffirm control because people at base level don’t want to conform to that
BobbyJ: Putting Mingi's entry right after Yeo's is an interesting contrast. Yeosang has just had his turning point but Mingi clearly has not. Mingi is still trapped in his old mindset and I think that's why he's so irritated with everything. Do you get the feeling that he's "protesting too much"?
Tea: Maybe a little. He’s being a big grumpy pants about everything but still goes along with everyone without real protest. He could just be clinging to a familiar mindset
GD: I have a couple of thoughts that came to mind about his attitude, and none of them I'm necessarily committed to. But with Wooyoung specifically, I can read it in two different ways. One, it's affectionate. "He's so nosy." in the same way I would say "oh it's so stupid" Like, yeah, he's nosy but that's why I like him. Or alternatively, there could be a little jealousy there in that previously Wooyoung's nosiness was directed at Mingi, and now it is directed at someone else. It seems pretty clear that Mingi wouldn't be here without Wooyoung, so there must be some sort of internal feelings about Wooyoung choosing to cast his affection and attention on someone who arguably needs more help now.
Tea: I think I read it as a bit teasing but also he's using Wooyoung's nosiness as sort of like... an excuse for why he's less than enthused about their plan. Like "ugh I guess, but if you weren't so nosy we wouldn’t have to" even though PROBABLY it wouldn't just have been Wooyoung's idea. Sticking constantly to that reluctance that may or may not be affected at this point
BobbyJ: The last we heard from Mingi, he was the first to voluntarily leave the group. He didn't do it because he wanted to but because he felt he needed to protect himself from inevitable disappointment. I don't think he could conceive of a real future with these friends because dreams like that have always been a luxury. So my interpretation is not that he's back to being affectionately grumpy but he's still protecting himself
Tea: Mmm self sabotage, idk about you guys but that's always MY game plan. I could see it very easily as calling Wooyoung nosy (twice!!!) is a way to mentally keep him at arm's length (mentally because I assume these diaries are private)
BobbyJ: Yes. And I could also see there being some jealousy in it. Like, he'd gotten used to the attention and that maybe made him feel more secure until things went down with his grandmother
Tea: Coming back after you left on less than stellar terms is very hard and probably frightening to some extent
GD: The reason I read jealousy into it is the line "whatever, there's no one without a story"
after spending a paragraph talking about how nosy wooyoung is
BobbyJ: Yes. And perhaps made Mingi feel less special because Woo would do the same for anyone
GD: It feels to me like he's saying "but what about me"
Tea: Poor ming
GD: That is the theme of his diary entries. They're very heartbreaking
Tea: Ugh this is even more awful that this was released while he was on hiatus
BobbyJ: I'm pretty sure his turning point happens off screen which is frustrating. I had wondered at the time if KQ was going to write his absence into the lore, but looking back I'm glad they didn't
Tea: Oh that would have been awful
GD: It's notable to me that he goes with the Left Eye group and not to help get the girl's voice back. I mean maybe it doesn't mean anything, but it also supports an interpretation that he's annoyed/frustrated with the Wooyoung situation
Tea: You can call it whatever you want
BobbyJ: It's also always been notable to me that Woo doesn't go with the GG group. He picked up this sidequest for them all but then gives it to Jongho
GD: Jongho the strongest and most reliable 🥰
Tea: Another reason to assume the side quest was not fully "nosy Wooyoung's" idea
BobbyJ: Jongho probably volunteered
Tea: He might have been the first to suggest it but I'm sure many others were fully on board
Wooyoung is just good at voicing thoughts others might not
GD: We know that Jongho of this world has changed his dream to be that of music, and perhaps the loss of a voice would be upsetting to him
Do we have any additional thoughts on Mingi's page?
Tea: Maybe I am forgetting something from the future but isn't it kinda weird that the dump manager is apparently the ONLY person who can tell them where the government hideout is
BobbyJ: I think Left Eye is a former Black Pirate. Why they put him in charge of the dump is a question I have. Perhaps as punishment?
GD: I've interpreted that as he is the only person that the Grimes siblings know of who knows where the android bunker is located. Not like, the only person. Just that the Grimes siblings are children who don't know many people/things
Tea: Could be
BobbyJ: I do think that there are at least some other semi-active resistances in this world, given how easily it seems they are able to reactivate the Black Pirates for the big Fever showdown
Tea: Would be weird for there not to be at least a little resistance tbh
BobbyJ: I continually forget how big this world is supposed to be
Tea: Makes me wonder like...... Halateez are assumed to be the same as other teez which would make them high school aged, or maybe a couple years more if there's no noticeable differences to "themselves." How long have these kids been at it?? They're clearly almost mythical figures at this point
BobbyJ: People age much more slowly
Tea: Would have to be.... a lot much
BobbyJ: Mild spoilers, but the kid they're rescuing in outlaw diary is 40
Tea: Oh that is a lot much. Weird
BobbyJ: People live to 200 now and go to school for 40 years
Tea: *throws books out the window* nevermind
(constant Ateez feeling when new info comes out tbh)
BobbyJ: So, Halateez could have been at it for several years
GD: I've had vague thoughts about whether or not they just track time differently because I don't understand how one literally slows down the aging process. Like I understand extending life, but not slowing it down. Perhaps it's just not for me to understand.
Tea: Is this just KQ's hand waving for "no no our mid 20's boys? they are teenagers still don't worry about it"
GD: I suppose a major theme in their work is something like age is just a number/age doesn't matter. So it's all thematically sound
BobbyJ: Honestly, I've always felt that slowing down the aging process was the only way extended lifespans make sense. Imagine being told that you're going to live an extra 100 years but you have to live them as a 90 year old
Tea: Yeah that would be awful. And we see a bit of that in a less extreme form even today. creams and treatments that "prevent aging"
GD: Right, terrible
Tea: If they're a super technologically advanced world maybe they've just found a way to do that permanently. DNA jiggering or whatnot
BobbyJ: We're in a world where one's memories and emotions can be extracted. Anything's possible
Tea: Exciting and terrifying at the same time
BobbyJ: Actually, not necessarily emotions but "individual energy" which I'm not certain is the same thing
Tea: That sounds almost like a "soul" tbh, which is nasty to think about. A truly soul sucking place to live
GD: I think we've posited before that "energy extraction" was more "memory extraction"? They take the memory of the knowing how to speak, not necessarily the ability? Or they take the memories of whatever in order to keep everyone at an even level
BobbyJ: I do think that's how they have GG's voice
GD: Which does give me some additional questions about Left Eye, which I guess aren't relevant today. But could they have removed the memory of his daughter? Would that have made him a better citizen? Or are there some memories that are too powerful--sort of coded in our blood and soul memories?
BobbyJ: I also think that there are several different types of control going on here. I'm not certain they actually take emotions but rather the memories and other stimuli that could cause emotions (art etc). And perhaps the energy extraction isn't done to everyone but only to those who don't conform
Tea: If he really was part of the resistance maybe they couldn't catch him to do that
GD: But he's working in the dump for them now, which seems a bit... like a punishment? Like they did catch him and wanted him to suffer.
Tea: Maybe they figured the fog was good enough
BobbyJ: We see at the end of Epilogue that those who've had their energy extracted are indeed pretty soulless
Tea: I was just thinking that in this last MV we see a lot of people that are supposedly living pretty "normal" lives
GD: Deep question: is it our memories that make up our soul?
Tea: This is the nature vs nurture question in a different format
GD: Ateez format. The best format
Tea: My Ateez answer is the same as the other: It's a part I'm sure
BobbyJ: This is part of my beef with Katharine and Isabel who believe that who you are is coded into your genetics and can't be modified
Tea: Should I know who those people are
BobbyJ: MBTI ladies
Tea: Ah
BobbyJ: Like, according to them, GD and I should essentially be the same person bc we're both INFJs
GD: And we do share a tiny brain cell, so accurate
I'm thinking about the first diary and how so many of the boys’ entries focus on their memories--not what is happening to them in the moment. Hongjoong and the memory of his family in the living room, Seonghwa and the memory of the bracelet girl, Jongho and the memory of playing basketball, Yunho and the memory of the han river with his brother
Tea: Certainly I would say for myself my memories make up a large chunk of who I consider myself to be. And tbh when I took the test in high school I was INTJ and when I took it a couple years ago I was ISFP so I don't put a lot of stock in it. At least the lack of changeability of it
BobbyJ: Oh, it's all nonsense
GD: Sorry, I'm still here [referring to the members and their memories]. And I guess I'm wondering who the boys would be if Z somehow removed those specific memories, so I'm lost in thoughts about the importance of their memories on the trajectory of the story
Tea: Are you prophesizing?
BobbyJ: But I don't think it's the actual memories so much as it is the experiences themselves and the ability to recall those experiences after they've happened.
Again, that makes sense in my head
Tea: I kinda get it
GD: I think I follow
Tea: Like, you've already changed whether you can remember why or not
BobbyJ: Yes? I'm thinking--what if Yunho forgot about his brother? Would he still care so much about music? What if Hongjoong no longer remembered his family he lost
Tea: I think maybe at the beginning (so maybe here plot wise) that might have changed things but eventually their bond with each other gives them another reason to care
GD: For at least a few of them, their motivation at the start of the story was entirely dependent on their memories
BobbyJ: But their bond is created from their shared experiences
GD: And for most of them, we have not seen a significant change yet
Tea: Well I was talking about forgetting those things exclusively not everything
GD: Yeosang has had a change of heart, but is he the only one?
Tea: If they forgot everything then who knows
BobbyJ: Yeah, that's my point--everything is tied to memory
GD: I mean at this point in the story, they are not really relying on each other much. They're close, but most of them haven't decided that it's the group above all?
Tea: IDK, could we consider Wooyoung on board even though he was never really offboard
BobbyJ: Perhaps we could argue that ZFP2-3 are the diaries that really bring them together
GD: We honestly don't learn much about where Wooyoung is personally in his diary entry. We learn about the suffering of others in this world
Tea: I think yeah at this point they're only barely getting their toes wet on the whole rebellion side and once they fix Left Eye and get more of a story that's when they start thinking about a larger picture beyond their individual motivations as a group
GD: Yeah, I think I'd say that they're just now beginning the journey that will create the experiences that eventually bond them together.
Tea: We know Wooyoung is already suggesting other ways to help outside of getting home so I consider that on board
GD: Well, he's nosy like that
Tea: lol
BobbyJ: Wooyoung hasn't demonstrated any of the internal struggles the others have
Tea: That's why I said I don't know that we can even consider him to have ever been not on board. He's just very. "yeah lets do it"
BobbyJ: And I don't think that's a bad thing? It's very difficult to develop a story with 8 main characters
Tea: Oh it's definitely not and very Wooyoung
02: patron saints
BobbyJ: We don't have a closing procedure
GD: Should we pick mid-week patron saints even though BobbyJ and I have technically already done that?
BobbyJ: Tea can pick and GD and I can just share
Tea: My choice is San. This week has been kinda rough for me on the mental side and San is the one who I always turn to to remind me to take care of myself
GD: Mmm yes. He gives off very stable vibes to me.
BobbyJ: Interesting--I also picked San back when I knew a rough week was ahead
GD: I think I did too?
BobbyJ: Yes, your Choi brothers week
GD: I've picked Wooyoung for this week because I want to be able to appropriately share my enthusiasm and excitement over others. I am awkward about sharing my feelings, and he's not, so I would like to take some inspiration from that.
Tea: Wooyoung's genuine openness is truly something to aspire to
BobbyJ: Mine is Mingi to give me enthusiasm, stability, and unbotheredness for traveling
GD: Great work team
We will be back next week with part 2 of our study where we will look more closely at what Mingi's page means for the broader story.
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