[Note: This series originally started as a project on Reddit, and we are archiving the posts here on our site. You can find the original Bible Study posts here.]
Happy WooSan trailer day! Watching the trailer again before reading our thoughts on Wooyoung's page is not necessary but highly encouraged.
Today we meet the Grimes siblings and the boys lose the Cromer, so let's get to it!
01: what are your thoughts on the page?
GD: I'm here now as soon as I can find my bible
BobbyJ: I am also settled and have even read today's entry. I believe it's a reading practice day?
GD: It is! I found my bible. It was by my bed for some light night time reading I guess
BobbyJ: Makes sense. Sometimes the mysteries of the universe are unlocked in our dreams
GD: Okay, I am caught up, and WOW. I forgot we were on Wooyoung, and just so much wow. What are your thoughts on the page?
BobbyJ: Where to begin? So, obviously told out of order. I feel that a lot of emphasis is placed on the Grimes girl for a Reason. Like, they wanted her to be the start of the entry rather than be buried in the middle
GD: I have a thought that needs help. I feel like it's very important that it's a girl in the moonlight--because I'm almost cast back to Seonghwa on the snowy road?
BobbyJ: If I try hard enough I can make her a parallel to the Be Free girl
GD: Right? Which I feel has to be intentional
BobbyJ: I don't think so though. Because the Grimes girl--whom I will never forgive the Intern for not giving a name to, meanwhile we have Bobo--other than rescuing the crew doesn't affect the plot at all. We know Woo is going to take on a sidequest to retrieve her voice (more on this later)--a quest he doesn't even go on--but even that doesn't affect the overall narrative
GD: I don't know walk with me
She literally doesn't have a voice, and she saves Wooyoung. And metaphorically, the people of Strictland don't have a voice. And while I can't really draw the line yet, I think those two things are important. The Be Free bracelet girl changed Hwa to go his way, and the Grimes girl opened Woo's eyes to those without a voice
BobbyJ: I guess? But I also feel they can each serve those very important functions without being necessarily connected
GD: I think we may be using connected in a different way. I just feel there's a nice balance and symmetry--a metaphorical story mirroring in the same way that a novel's opening and closing scenes often mirror each other--I don't think Grimes girl is actually connected to Hwa's Be Free girl
BobbyJ: As in, we're seeing the same narrative trope repeated for the same purpose? Maybe not a trope, but kind of
GD: Yeah, something like that. Like Hwa's moment in Diary 1 was what lead him on his journey that got him off the road he was on and into the Warehouse, and I'm wondering if Woo's moment here is what leads him on his journey that goes from 'dance in a big company' to 'help people have the power to dance on their own. That's not exactly right, but something like that
BobbyJ: Here's the thing though--I don't think this is a growth moment for Woo the way Be Free was for Hwa. This is Woo being VERY Woo. Like, helping people is his default. We've seen that before. It's not to take away from how amazing that is, but that this isn't character development.
I think he's always been on the path to liberating a world. Of course he's going to save Strictland
He didn't know it, of course, but this is his natural path where it isn't so much for the others.
Or like. . . how to explain
GD: I agree it's not a character change, but I do think it's a changing of the path he was on (not that he really had a choice given who he is)
BobbyJ: So, I'm reading the MBTI book. You have your dominant process and you have your auxiliary process. There's the one you're really comfortable using and the one that needs practice to develop--and is often underdeveloped. However, for Woo, his are like equally developed. So he can switch between very easily. He's just switched his process to suit the situation
I think I'm just making it more confusing but it makes sense in my head
My point is, I think--who can say--that the Grimes girl is definitely very important for reasons that aren't necessarily connected to Wooyoung (outside of my fanfiction)
GD: I think the way she's written gives us a lot of vibes without the diary entry needing to give us too much information on her
BobbyJ: That's the theme of the diaries "No information, just vibes"
GD: I do like seeing a symmetry between this entry and Hwa's entry because, in general, I like finding symmetry. It makes me feel like the writer is clever. But also ,I do think this is an important moment for Wooyoung because it makes her one of his people, regardless of what happens after, and being one of Wooyoung's people is a pretty cool place to be. But I also like this girl as a representative of Strictland as a whole--the girl without a voice, the society without a voice. And I also kind of like her as a pre-Be Free Bracelet Hwa--before Seonghwa had a voice and did it his way
So basically, I think the Grimes girl is the bringing together of everything in the bible
and she should probably have a name other than Grimes girl
BobbyJ: Yes, she needs a name
GD: I also like that she has a brother who is with her? Like, the story of most characters in here is just a long line of semi broken families? Hongjoong, who lost his family. Yunho, who lost his brother, Left eye to come, who lost his daughter. Yeosang, who isn't really seen by his family as being his own person it seems. So, it's different to see a family together. I don't know that it's important, but it seems notable in the story
BobbyJ: He serves the utilitarian function of being able to speak for his sister. But it is interesting that he is a brother. Does it feel like Strictland would ban family relationships? If love and other emotions aren't a thing, what's the purpose of family units?
I wonder how and why they have moved to the forest. Obviously to escape the government, but I wonder if they would have been split up--maybe sent to separate schools
GD: I'm reminded of The Giver
BobbyJ: Yes
GD: Where the family units weren't family units as you and I would think about family units as much as just an efficient way to guide two children to adulthood. Maybe it is important that he's her brother--because maybe that means in addition to being family, perhaps they also choose each other
BobbyJ: Given that the schools, which last for 40 years, are such a major institution, it's almost like parents aren't even necessary
GD: I always forget about the schools lasting 40 years because my mind can't comprehend it. But that does make me wonder if perhaps they don't really have parents? Like maybe they aren't related brother and sister--but that's just what they call each other? I mean, who knows--we won't
BobbyJ: I wonder if they were born on the outskirts--children of the rebellion. Either that or, if they are biologically related, the takeover wasn't that long ago
GD: Well, papago has given me some interesting information on the grimes. I was curious if they'd translate it as brother or friend, or something else, but it says "The girl had a younger brother"
BobbyJ: Oh, it does say younger brother. It's right there. Huh. I always pictured them as twins
GD: I did too!
BobbyJ: Would a teenager be translated as a child? Because if she's an actual child child, there are some very grim implications
GD: They do use the word for child, but I guess I don't know culturally how long that word is used. Like, I don't know if they call someone a child who are 13 or 14, or if they do transition to a different word for teens. But they're definitely using the word that translates to child in the diary.
BobbyJ: Considering how her story ends (?), I'm going to continue thinking of her as a teenager
In my fanfiction, she's the same age as the others
GD: 아이 is what they say, which I would think would mean at least several years younger than Wooyoung for him to call her that. But I've always thought of her as like 12-13
BobbyJ: I'm just going to have to. . . put that down
So, I have two big things I need to discuss. First, circling back to the idea that the Guardians aren't super intelligent. Once they get the Cromer, they just dip. Like, they have zero interest in Ateez outside of the Cromer (more thoughts on this later). So, why do they drag Wooyoung away if they aren't actually interested in Ateez? Is he the one carrying the Cromer? If so, that's a fun parallel to the Epilogue. Like, I guess if he has it and he's not giving it up, they're like "Fine we'll just take you," a scuffle ensues in which the Cromer is lost, and Wooyoung is saved.
GD: Yes
BobbyJ: I guess my issue is a narrative one--because I don't see why we have two skirmishes back to back
GD: It is like they want us to think the Guardians are stupid. This is the third entry where they've said the Guardians were fooled by the glass fragments
BobbyJ: Not that I'm criticizing the Intern, because I would never, but it seems that rather than focusing on Hongjoong being clever with the glass, his struggle should have been do I keep this device that can save all of us and sacrifice a member or save that member and potentially doom us all
GD: Right, so isn't our job to figure out why the intern didn't do that? It does seem the obvious choice. So what does this entry give us narratively?
BobbyJ: We learn the guardians are persistent?
GD: It's interesting--and not necessarily relevant to the question I asked--I had thought that the guardians maybe had some sort of honing device on the cromer and that's how they kept finding it... But that doesn't seem to be true? Maybe that's why they keep reminding us that the Guardians were fooled. So perhaps the plan was to just drag the boys away one by one to get the cromer, but once it, idk, fell out of Hongjoong's pocket, they just took it instead
BobbyJ: I'm reminded of the DV music video and I just have nothing but questions
GD: I have lots of questions about the android guardians, none of which I know how to phrase or articulate
BobbyJ: Here's what we know about the guardians:
They wear white, they were created by Z specifically to deal with the Cromer bc Halateez were impossible to catch with it (back to this in a moment), they are tall, they can speak, they can get drunk
We suspect that they may not be super smart or highly-developed intelligence-wise, also they may not have a way to track the cromer. . . but then how do they know where to find Ateez immediately upon their arrival?
GD: I've been thinking about that.
BobbyJ: And then they find them again in the forest--which may not have been hard since they were probably being noisy
GD: And the answer is something like, Halajoong brought them there on purpose? (like the boys are all brought there together and those boys are not in fact in the warehouse when it happens, so it does seem possible that they didn't have to end up in the warehouse in Z universe just because that's where they started.. anyways...) The warehouse was a compromised location from hala? So it was already being watched? We're told there is a large flash of light.
Wow. How convoluted
BobbyJ: Are you saying Halajoong set them up?
GD: Yes, I guess that is what I'm saying. For what purpose, I don't know. Snap them out of it? Wake them up? I don't know
BobbyJ: Here's my issue. Well--not so much an issue bc it's based on an entirely unproven theory. But I've long believed that Halajoong gives the Cromer to Hongjoong bc he's been to the future and knows what happens if Ateez doesn't get involved. By giving away his only weapon to fight against Z, he basically dooms Halateez to be captured. They would not have been caught if they still had the cromer. I suspect that there must be some sort of wormhole type connection at the specific spot the warehouse is built bc when they return home, don't they end up back in the warehouse?
GD: They do--and I....
BobbyJ: And if the guardians know this, they would be staking out the warehouse waiting for whoever shows up. So it's not so much that they were set up as there was no other way?
GD: Perhaps that's right..
I've been thinking a lot about fate recently. I've always balked at a one-teez theory because I don't like what it says about the implications of a person's fate. Like, they had to go back in time to give themselves the cromer so that they could grow up to one day use the cromer to defeat Z, and it also gives me weird time-loopy thoughts, but mostly, I don't like the idea that time has pre-ordained that something will happen and I guess I have similar strong "please no" thoughts about the warehouse being pre-ordained Special, but I think perhaps I'm wrong on those. Don't mind me, I'm just having a personal crisis
BobbyJ: I don't think of it as a pre-ordained thing--to me it feels more based on science. Like this is a wormhole because the jibblies are weaker here and can allow the whosits to squeeze through
GD: mmmm yes the jibblies and the whosits
I suppose my immediate negative reaction was one of feeling like if the warehouse was the Special spot, then that meant that the people who are in the Special spot are destined to be the ones to use the Special spot. But that's, I think, where I'm wrong. Because there is nothing about their destiny that says they have to stay after being hauled through the Special spot. And also, they made the choices that led them to the Warehouse. So I guess the line is a little blurrier than I perhaps thought at first. The line between choice, fate, and destiny is one that is a sticking point for me. Like, I get really hung up on whether people have choices
BobbyJ: I think "yes" but not in the sense that you can choose to do whatever you want. We're always bound by circumstances and laws both manmade and natural as well as our own physical limitations. Our only true choice is who we will BE not necessarily what we can DO. Like--back to MBTI--I'm an introvert. That is apparently the way my brain was wired. That does not prevent me from interacting with other people and working to develop my social skills. It's not an excuse for me to be a full hermit or antisocial. It just means I have to navigate the world differently in order to be the person I want to be. But I'm never going to be comfortable going clubbing or to big, elitist type soirees. But that's okay, because the person I want to be is not either of those things
GD: So, I finished The Girl Who Fell Beneath the Sea recently, and I am working on a post for our Relationship month
BobbyJ: Yes, that's on my TBR pile right now
GD: But there's a bit in it where she says "I choose my fate" and then she did choose something, but it's what the stories said was fated to happen, so did she really choose? If we choose something that was destined to happen, did we choose? This has nothing to do with this diary entry, and I don't even know how I brought us here
BobbyJ: This is bible study and predestination vs. free will is a hot topic in the Bible (and in so much of literature) so I think it's relevant
GD: I'VE HAD A THOUGHT
So, I think both you and I keep circling a bit around: 'why is Wooyoung the one telling us this bit?' And I have sort of explained it to myself as like this must be an important moment for Wooyoung, and I drew some connection to Hwa. But I'd like to draw a connection in a different way now.
I was thinking about what it means to not have a voice--and what that might mean to Wooyoung--and then I remembered that he talks about talking in his Fever part 1 journal entry, which we've read so it feels fair game and so I have two-ish thoughts. One, that when Wooyoung was frozen in front of the cameras, did he feel like he didn't have a voice? And two, "I had a habit of constantly chatting to overcome stage fright and I practiced laughing to hide my shyness." And then my third thought is that when he was scared, he heard Seonghwa's voice inside his head and I don't have any thoughts about what those things mean, but I thought I should put them on the table
BobbyJ: I do want to talk about GG's voice. But this connects to Halazia too, yes? The little bluebird. Is. . . GG the bluebird? No. Right? No but like. . .
Putting that down
GD: Yes... and no... right?
It is such a specific and literal thing in the story, and I think we've both interpreted it metaphorically in Halazia? But perhaps it's both.
BobbyJ: So, I have two questions--maybe 1 1/2 questions and 1/2 thought--about GG's voice and the loss thereof
GD: I'm sure I'll have no answers
BobbyJ: First, why did they take her voice? Why take her voice and not fully recondition her like we know they can do? Was it a punishment? Was she singing? Was she spreading the news of salvation and truth? Was it part of the takeover--did other artists lose their voices as well?
GD: I'm thinking about the way dreams can be both metaphorical and literal. And it makes me think that voice is also metaphorical and literal. I can literally have my voice and metaphorically have no voice, you know? But if someone literally takes my voice away from me, it would be hard--not impossible--but hard to have a metaphorical voice? So I guess what I'm saying is... I wonder if the bluebird lost its voice is a metaphor based on something that perhaps literally happens to many people.
BobbyJ: We know that GG's voice, her literal voice, has been taken because it's in a location. Obviously it can be symbolic like you were saying, but in this case it was physically removed from her and put elsewhere
GD: As far as why only the voice? Reminds me of punishments like how the yakuza is said to cut off people's fingers? It's to show this is what will happen to you too if you don't do what you're supposed to. Like a fear tactic. If you share thoughts we don't want you to share, we will take away your ability to share any thoughts?
BobbyJ: I'm thinking about the Hunger Games and how they cut people's tongues out
GD: Right. They can literally take your voice out and put it somewhere else. People can and do lose their actual voice in this world.
BobbyJ: But that brings me to my half a thought
This is the only time we see them take an ability. We know they can take feelings and memories, probably dreams as well. But a voice is not like those things. So, what I think they actually did was remove her memory of how to speak. But that implies that they could do the same for anything. They could also remove someone's memory of how to dance, for instance.
GD: Hmmmm interesting. Yes, I like that a lot
BobbyJ: It doesn't answer the question of why they threw it in a trash cave instead of destroying it or taking it to Guardian Island for processing
GD: Do you think they can alter memories? Or just remove them?
BobbyJ: Why am I thinking of a movie where it's harder to change a memory than remove it completely--or am I thinking of Inception which is an entirely different thing
GD: I think you're thinking of Inception. Which... isn't wrong necessarily
BobbyJ: I'm also thinking of a Radiolab episode where they talk about a therapy that changes people's memories in order to help them cope with trauma
GD: If we really want to upset ourselves, we could talk about how fever 1 is just their altered memories, and none of that stuff actually happened, and it is in fact a oneteez situation
BobbyJ: In this story of parallel universes and doppelgängers, we NEED an anchor. I need to believe that the Teez I see is Realteez. I absolutely swear if the end of all this is Hongjoong waking up from a dream, I will RIOT. The zeppelin will not be enough to convey my anger
GD: I think there's a version of the story where it is oneteez, and the fever 1 is a just replaced memories, but that's not the story they're telling. I believe there are at least 2 separate and distinct versions of them: an A version and a Z version. And that's just what I'm going to have to continue to believe until I am told otherwise by the intern
BobbyJ: The reason I would be so offended if "it was all a dream" or "none of it was real" is that this is not like Alice in Wonderland where everything is nonsense and nothing really matters. There's a lot of character growth and truth in this very silly story. It has meaning. And it would be so awful to me for this relevant and important story--that people love to shit on because it's "cringey" or it "makes no sense"--for those people to be proven right because it was all a dream, it never happened, and it didn't matter.
GD: There is a way where they could do it, and it wouldn't upset me, but.. it would have to be so graceful. Like they'd need to wake up from this world and then they'd have to use what they learned in their shared collective dream to change the world of A. Like, if they don't make meaningful changes to their life, I will not accept it.
BobbyJ: Like, there's this really weird version of Alice in Wonderland that I forget the title of, but Alice is an adult who ends up on this very dark adventure in an alternate universe in which she falls in love with--it's either the Hatter or the White Rabbit, can't remember--but the way she gets herself out of the dark universe it by time travel back to before the story happens. She retains her memories but the Hatter/Rabbit does not. But the movie tries to keep them in a relationship--like, no. He doesn't have the growth and experiences that they shared. This cannot work.
GD: Yes--a shared collective dream that they all experienced together inception style
BobbyJ: I'm not sure how relevant that was. I think I just needed to vent about a movie I saw like ten years ago
GD: What I took from your share was that this can't be a thing that just happened to Hongjoong
because unless 8 makes 1 team actually means that only Hongjoong exists, then the other boys have to remember and share in their own character growth
BobbyJ: But if this is a universe in which 8 boys can share a dream, then why can't they also experience time travel and dimension-hopping? Why is one thing more impossible than the other?
GD: I'd say it's not.. but I don't think they're all in a dream, so my opinion is maybe not relevant
Like, I can see the theory, and I'm not saying it's not not sound, but I don't personally think they are in a dream
BobbyJ: I am digging my heals in and fighting this theory on an emotional and spiritual level. I do not care about its soundness
GD: We need to invite someone who does think they're in a dream as a guest so that we can understand the full scope of the theory, and then we can find our evidence to prove them wrong
BobbyJ: I will spend that whole episode mad. I'd rather debate sirens
GD: Yes but sirens are ludicrous, so there’s no point to that. It will give us nothing
BobbyJ: And that's how I feel about "it was all a dream.” Do we have any other observations before we break?
GD: I don’t think so
They continue to describe them as giants
BobbyJ: I have a tiny one--I suppose when it says she "healed" his ankle, it means she "treated" it?
GD: I was just about to say that the hurt ankle was interesting. They say healed.. and I guess, I’m reminded of the Elysium movie again? Perhaps the world of Z does have the type of things that can just “heal”
BobbyJ: Oh, like advanced medicine, not magic
GD: We know that Z did keep a lot of his promises. Advanced medicine would look like magic to someone who didn’t understand it.
BobbyJ: I do not need magic in this world. I think The Babies should keep the magic
GD: Yes, I would imagine it’s some “science” that healed it—whether or not the intern has thought through the specifics of that science is unknown
BobbyJ: Probably thought through as much as the process of removing memories and putting them in beads
GD: Did we already talk about whether the thing that San pulled down was all of those people’s literal voices? Literal and metaphorical voices?
BobbyJ: I think so--we've definitely talked about it being their memories. I was just about to say that they created this rather specific kind of image--the beads representing memories--and they never used that imagery anywhere in the mvs.
GD: Hmm. Dreamers cube?
BobbyJ: Is a cube, not a sphere
GD: I have cube shaped beads. Do they specifically say it’s a sphere? Perhaps bead just means “small thing”
BobbyJ: Probably not. Looks like a bead with energy inside is all we know. They don't even describe what the memories look like at all. They could be anything at all.
GD: I would say that having the dream cube be a memory bead would make narrative sense in a way that the dream cube currently doesn’t. But I’m not ready to like make a case for it
BobbyJ: I will ponder this in my heart
GD: Cubes would be easier to store than spheres probably. But does put some wrinkles in my “the thing San pulls down is memories” theory, I admit
BobbyJ: They're not even supposed to be storing them--they're supposed to be burning them for energy
GD: A fair point
BobbyJ: It's an interesting metaphor--trading/burning away your emotions/dreams for prosperity and security
GD: A great metaphor
BobbyJ: But that's for a later discussion probably. We should have a mid-point ending routine
GD: Ohhh good idea
02: patron saints
BobbyJ: I've been thinking it would be fun to add a "confession" segment, but I have no idea what it would be or look like
GD: We typically do this on Sunday? Which means we’re about to head into the week. Perhaps the midpoint confessional could be us sharing a good Ateez thing we will make time for this week. Which isn’t a confessional at all, but sometimes I need strength for the week. Oh. Maybe we could say a challenge we will have this week and a member of Ateez who we think can help us meet it. Pick a boy as your weekly patron saint
BobbyJ: Ah, yes. That sounds fun
GD: Okay, I think I can probably go first. As you know, my mom got sick a couple of months ago, which meant that I basically stopped working for a couple weeks while I grieved. So it meant that I missed my work deadline. My new deadline is mid May, which we are quickly approaching, and I really don’t want to be late again. So there’s basically a set point that I have to have finished by this coming Wednesday, and I’m just feeling a lot of feelings about it. And I think the boy I need is Yeosang. Yeosang’s commitment and determination. [editors note: GD did in fact finish that point and reach her deadline as we met for this a couple of weeks ago]
BobbyJ: Mmm, yes. I'm reminded of his practice routine. So, I'm going to immediately break the rules and pick two
GD: Excellent
BobbyJ: I have two ongoing challenges I'm dealing with. First, you know my cat has been sick. He's feeling a lot better this weekend, but he has an ultrasound tomorrow to figure out some underlying issues. He's quite old so I've been processing and pre-grieving the end of his life which is a nearing certainty, I just don't know what the timeline is. So I feel like what I need is Jongho's certainty and fortitude. The ability to face the future head on no matter what it is.
Secondly, and less tragically, the end of the school year is approaching and I am absolutely drowning in grading. Since it's my first year in this position, I spend a lot of time planning and developing curriculum. So, I'd like to call on Hongjoong's industriousness.
GD: I think those are very fitting picks. May the boys bring us strength in the coming week.
Thank you for going on this journey with us to discuss Wooyoung! We will be back next week to do a sacred reading practice with Wooyoung's page, and further explore what it means more broadly.
Let us know your thoughts on the page and your patron saint for the week!
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